this Extreme Programming, yeah, I knew it was crap." We don't want to be in that situation, but there are so many gains that can be made from it.
There's a lot of writing that's going on in terms of who's writing about XP. And if you go onto Ward Cunningham's Web site, which is C2.com, you can browse through it and find out who's doing the writing. There's a lot of different links to a lot of different places. Industrial Logic is one of the companies that's actually doing a lot of training and consulting in the XP area.
We were talking about metrics. XP is hard to explain in just a couple of moments. And anybody who's listening who has done XP is probably already bored to tears, and they say, "Well, gee, we're already doing that." Well, what kind of metrics are in place? And one of the threads that was in the e-group back in December, which had about 60 postings, so that's about a normal day's worth. But it actually spread across two weeks. It was "Metrics to prove XP works." And the answers that came up and the things that people posted were very very interesting. Ron Jeffries, who is one of the three extremos, moderates the site and will interject whenever it makes sense to do that. And one of the things that he said is that...somebody wrote in and said, "We're planning on piloting some XP projects at work, but we continually run across the question that we can't seem to answer effectively. How will you quantitatively show that XP is an improvement over more traditional methodologies, such as iterative waterfall?" Well, number one, I guess my question would be, "What's to prove that the traditional waterfall works?" We've been using that for years, but what's the proof that that works? We know from the Standish study and a number of different studies that have been done, where we find out that programming today does not deliver valuable software. It's not usable. We don't quantify that. Ron Jeffries' answer, which was a little bit flip, or some of you may think it's a little bit flip, he said if you were considering adding more testing to a team that didn't do much, would you be looking for metrics? If you thought that better manuals would make the customers happy, would you do metrics? Or is the question about metrics really someone's question about something else entirely? And I'll come back from the break with a few more illustrations of what people think we should be measuring and what we shouldn't be measuring and give you an opportunity to participate in a new study group on XP. So I hope you'll join us after this short break.
Welcome back to Quality Plus e-Talk! We're having a virtual interview with Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham. And it's easier when they're actually here live, but hey, we're doing okay and I'm channeling. That's what I'll say. I'm channeling Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham as we speak. So this is really a psychic hotline type show. What do you think? The toll-free number's 866-277-5369, and we were starting to talk a little bit about metrics. And as I said, there was an entire thread going on the e-group, Extreme Programming e-group. And Kent Beck talks a lot about metrics in his book. One of the things he says is that the basic XP management tool is the metrics. For example, the ratio between estimated development time and calendar time is the basic measure for running the