know what, I think we are in a creative art, and I think yes, it needs enormous amounts of discipline.
Carol: Would you say then that you are a supporter of the Software Engineering Institute's Capability Maturity Model?
Tim: No. I worry about that because of only one thing. And that is, it's a scoring system. And I find life is much more complicated than grades A, B, C, D, E, or level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And people get… I see it all the time, they worry about going up a level to score well, rather than saying, "Where are we a little bit lax, or where are we a little bit short? Let's look at the key process improvement areas, the KPAs, think about what kind of software we build, where if we could improve we would get a real payback for that improvement and work that way?" I've got no problem with the CMM except for the scoring. Put it that way. The KPAs, all the fundamental stuff in there is terrific, and it's terrific to talk about it in the context of what kind of software and what kind of projects we have, and how do you interpret it as a framework for improvement? That's just fine.
Carol: And we'll be back to close up with Tim Lister after these messages.
And we're back with Tim Lister, and we've got a little bit of a wrap-up. We've been talking to Tim about productive teams and what makes a productive team, and whether it's process, whether it's people, technology, all these types of things. And I think you've found a lot of differences in your whole career, in terms of technology advancements. Have people really changed?
Tim: Boy. You know what, in our industry, they have, in a weird way. And the way they've changed is, the population is better represented. I'm kind of throwing you a wild card here. Two things: one is, I came right out of university and got a job programming, and everybody was a kid when I was a kid. I mean, my first job, I worked in a special group on Wall Street. My boss' boss' boss was 29, and that was the world. Because there was nobody with 20 years' experience in computing, so to speak. It was exploding, and so one, we've grayed, to be polite, and now we have people who are… Actually, I have a client who has kids who come in after school who are high school juniors and sophomores, who do Internet Web site maintenance for them and things. So, you know, we've got kids who are in 10th grade and folks who are in their 60s.
Carol: And that's an interesting kind of industry to be in, where we've got a lot of the older ones supporting the younger ones, a lot of the younger ones supporting the older ones. And I think it's a real testament to our society, to our IT society, that we can sustain that kind of thing.
Tim: The other thing I'd like to say is… The other thing I've seen, Carol, it used to be all guys. And now, thank goodness, it more looks like the real world.
Carol: And you've seen a lot more changes. I'd like to thank you, Tim. We could probably talk another three or four or five hours on this, and I'd probably like to invite you back at the end of our series of shows. I'd like to thank you very much. I'd like to give people the Web site for…