shift that we're talking about. And when I'm talking to folks in Level 1 organizations, I basically don't talk to them a whole lot about Levels 4 and 5. I tell them: You've got a major culture shift to go through in getting to Levels 2 and 3. And I can tell you what the advantages are, the benefits are, and hopefully make a plausible case for it that you'll understand. But when I start talking about Levels 4 and 5, we're talking about two culture shifts away, if you will.
Mark: And you're just never going to really understand that if you're in a Level 1 environment fighting fires all the time. When we start talking about some of these other ideas, it's a culture shift.
Carol: And we'll be back with more of Mark Paulk and the capability maturity model after these messages...And welcome back to Quality Plus! E-talk. I'm Carol Dekkers. And we're going into one of our final segments with our guest this evening, who is Mark Paulk, a senior member of the technical staff at the Software Engineering Institute.
Now, Mark, we've been talking about the Capability Maturity Model and why processes and standardizations can lead to better software. And I can just hear in the back of my mind a lot of people saying: Well you're out of touch with the real world. When we're building an F16 and all the software with it, we're only doing it once where artists say, you know, the capability