and see all sorts of things. Kind of like a candy store.
David: Yeah, well, you can browse around in there and, I guess to follow that analogy, browse around and sort of shop for what you want. Sure.
Carol: And free samples.
David: And free samples. Absolutely. No charge.
Carol: A lot of people will be thrilled with that. Your trip to India. I think a lot of people are really interested. The high-maturity organizations. There's been a lot of press on level 1s, level 2s, level 3s, and as companies are coming up the maturity level, 3s and 4s are the ones that have been sending me emails and saying, "What about these high-maturity organizations? What is it that makes them different? How many of them are there? It used to just be a handful." What did you find from a worldwide perspective? I know that Indian conferences and a lot of the European conferences are a lot more international in flavor than our domestic conferences usually are. What did you find in terms of acceptance of the CMMI, and kind of the evolution, are there a lot more high-maturity organizations? What's the world perspective on this?
David: Well, okay, let me talk about India a little bit since I was just there and I'd say most of the participants in this particular conference, however, were from within India. Although from various portions of India. Actually, that was another sort of maybe my failing in geography, but I just really didn't understand how big it was and how spread out in some ways the various population centers really are. But it was interesting, having basically done two full days of tutorials, and having, if you will, a captive audience.
David: For that length of time. And talking with the folks. And one of the things that becomes very clear is that's perhaps a little bit of a contrast is they're all very focused on reaching level 4 or 5 of the CMM, rather than sometimes you'll hear here in the States, for instance, "We just want to get to level 3." Sometimes you hear those kinds of comments and that's a little bit of a difference. Now, the other thing that's interesting when people ask you what's one of the hallmarks that's differentiating, let's say a level 3 from a level 4 or 5 company, we are talking about measurement, particularly in my view, is the ability to actually leverage the data for the purposes of decision-making and improvement.
Carol: And I guess we're going to break real quick. This segment actually went a lot quicker than the last one. And we'll be back right after these short messages, with more of Dr. David Zubrow and talking about the CMMI, high-level maturity organizations.
And welcome back to the show. It's been, the last half hour we've talked to Dr. David Zubrow of the Software Engineering Institute. And we've been talking about his trip to India to the Software Engineering Process Group conference that was in India. David did two days' worth of tutorials and participated very heavily in the conference that was there. Before we went into the break, we were talking about higher-level maturity organizations. And one of the things you said that I thought was fascinating is that you ask companies, you hear a lot of people saying, "We just have to get to level 3," and that Indian companies were saying, "We're going to get to level 4 and 5." And in a lot of...I have kids, and one of the things I